When the Husband is Not a Devotee: The Grihasta Vision Team Responds
An article entitled “When the Husband is Not a Devotee,” written by Sundari Radhika Dasi for The Eight Petals newsletter and published on ISKCON News recently, caused a firestorm of controversy.
The article, which you can read along with its comments here, posed the question, “What if a woman is married to a man who is not a devotee?” The author—who qualified her answer by stating that it assumed “the husband is a normal man and not a homicidal maniac”—then went on to state that “all women have just one duty or dharma in this world—to serve her husband.” This she referred to as “stri-dharma.”
Sundari Radhika says in her article that any husband, whether he is “qualified” or not, is a direct representative of Krishna and the wife should serve him no matter what. She even goes so far as to say, “If the husband wants her to serve him meat, alcohol, sex, etc, she should serve him,” thus seeming to give men leeway to do whatever they want.
While some readers commenting on the article agreed with elements of it, most found it immature, unrealistic, and imbalanced.
For a more balanced view on the subject, ISKCON News approached Krsnanandini Dasi, who along with her husband Tariq Ziyad is a member of the Grihasta Vision Team (GVT), a group of certified marriage and family therapists dedicated to the health of ISKCON devotee marriages.
Prevention is Better than Cure
One of the GVT’s strongest recommendations, which Krsnanandini advocates before anything else, is that both female and male devotees do everything they can before marriage to make sure they get a partner who is compatible with them in Krishna consciousness and in everything else in life. This eliminates the kind of
husband, and difficulties with him, that Sundari Radhika talks about in her article.
As they say, ‘An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.’
“We like to encourage devotees to get at least ten to twelve hours of pre-marital education with qualified marriage and family educators who themselves have healthy Krishna conscious marriages,” Krsnanandini says. “Examine what both of your motives are, what your goals are, and look realistically at your expectations of each other. What roles do you see yourselves playing? For instance, the traditional role of a wife may be to cook, clean and do the laundry, but what if she works full-time just like the man? It’s also important to learn good communication and conflict resolution skills, to deal with some of the baggage that both people bring from their families of origin, and even to discuss how you will manage your finances.”
A Mature Approach
Of course, there may be cases where such a ‘prepared marriage’ is not possible—for instance, if an already-married woman becomes a devotee, and her husband does not.
It’s important to find the right advice from a mature devotee who truly cares about your welfare in this kind of situation, as illustrated by an example Krsnanandini gives, which shows that there is sometimes still a shocking lack of understanding about our philosophy even in today’s ISKCON.
“I recently introduced a new devotee to Krishna consciousness,” Krsnanandini says. “She was so excited, studying and learning about the philosophy, and finally went to stay at an ISKCON temple. While she was there, however, one of the devotees told her that she would have to leave her husband in order to be a real devotee!”
Close to tears, the woman called Krsnanandini, who advised her to be careful with devotees who were sincere but lacked understanding. She then reminded her that her husband was a good man who supported her being a devotee, even though he had not chosen to be one himself; and that they had a good relationship.
“To me, this is a very good, healthy and favorable situation for you to continue practicing Krishna consciousness in,” Krsnanandini said. “And if you continue to be a good wife and a good example, your husband may gradually feel more and more inclined to appreciate some of the things that you’re doing to become a more purified person.”
At these words, the woman felt hopeful.
The same mature approach is recommended for cases where there are problems in marriages where both partners are devotees.
“There was one Vaishnava couple whom I worked with as a marriage and family educator, where one spouse didn’t want to have sex anymore, and the other was not quite able to do that,” Krsnanandini says. “Both, however, were sincere devotees trying to make progress in spiritual life. So should the spouse that doesn’t want to have sex leave? No! They should see this as something Krishna wants them to work out together, to help each other.”
Even in a situation where an already-married woman becomes a devotee, and her husband is completely unfavorable and unsupportive, Krsnanandini would recommend working on the relationship, rather than any hasty separation. We should see our service to our husbands and wives as devotional service which pleases the Lord, and be careful not to simply quit the marriage any time there’s a problem.
“A Chaste Woman is Advised Not to Agree to Serve Such a Husband”
However, disagreeing with Sundari Radhika’s perspective that a wife should serve her husband no matter what, the Vedas say that all acts must be performed according to ‘desa, kala, patra’—time, place and circumstance. ISKCON Founder Srila Prabhupada cited this many times in conversations and in his purports such as that to Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.14.34.
“With mature, intelligent consideration, we should figure out how to properly apply scriptural principles in our particular situation,” Krsnanandini says. “Prabhupada often said that details can be adjusted or changed, but principles cannot. When a devotee asked him, ‘How do we know the difference between a principle and a detail?’ he thought for a moment and then replied, ‘It requires some intelligence.’ So Prabhupada wanted us to use our intelligence, rather than to follow blindly.”
Thus, the scriptural injunction—in Krishna consciousness as well as across most spiritual paths—is that once one gets married, one should not get divorced.
“However, if our spouse—in this case, the husband—perpetuates repeated and prolonged instances of degraded and immoral conduct that renders the devotee wife unable to continue her service to Krishna,” says Krsnanandini, “Then she can separate from that man.”
For Vaishnavas in the Chaitanya tradition, Sanatana-Dharma—or reconnecting the conditioned soul with Krishna—trumps all other types of dharma, including stri-dharma.
Thus, while we respect stri-dharma, the overarching question in everything we do should be “What is most advantageous to my making progress in Krishna consciousness?”
In this connection, the Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita, 15.265, clearly states, “When a husband is fallen, one’s relationship with him must be given up.”
In the purport to Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.11.28, Srila Prabhupada gives a direct answer to Sundari Radhika’s claim that “If the husband wants her to serve him meat, alcohol, sex, etc, she should serve him.” Prabhupada writes, “A chaste woman is advised not to agree to serve such a husband. It is not that a chaste woman should be like a slave while her husband is naradhama, the lowest of men.”
In the Chaitanya Charitamrita, the great devotee Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya says, “Inform my daughter Sathi to abandon her relationship with her husband because he has fallen down. When the husband falls down, it is the wife’s duty to relinquish the relationship.”
Krsnanandini reminds us that of course, separation such as this should never be done lightly, but only after very deep reflection, consideration, and advice from elders in the community that one trusts and respects.
“Men Want their Wife to be Sita, But they Don’t Want to be Rama.”
Interestingly, in his purport to the Chaitanya Charitamrita verse about Sarvabhauma’s daughter, Prabhupada quotes Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.18: “One cannot be a husband if he cannot liberate his dependents from inevitable death.” Prabhupada also states that “If a person is not in Krishna consciousness and is bereft of spiritual power, he cannot protect his wife from the path of repeated birth and death. Consequently such a person cannot be accepted as a husband.”
Prabhupada also writes in the Srimad Bhagavatam 4.26.17: “Actually, the woman must always be protected by her husband. We always speak of the Goddess of Fortune as being placed on the chest of Narayana. In other words, the wife must remain embraced by her husband. Thus she becomes beloved and well protected.”
This shows that the husband also has a very serious duty to protect and serve his wife. It does not endorse a one-sided, unhealthy relationship as Sundari Radhika seems to do in her article, with comments such as this one: “The wife should not be rude, critical or fight with the husband, as this would be greater than any sin he may possess. His faults should be dealt with by his superiors or equals, not by his subordinate (his wife).”
“There tends to be so much expectation of the woman,” says Krsnanandini. “But what is the expectation of the man? If you want a healthy Krishna conscious marriage, you need both a good wife, and the kind of husband that the wife can respect and appreciate. As ISKCON guru Radhanath Swami says, ‘Men want their wife to be Sita, but they don’t want to be Rama.’”
In a healthy relationship, Krsnanandini explains, the wife wants to serve the husband, and the husband wants to serve the wife—service is a mutual expression of love. In the ancient text Ramayana, when Lord Rama was banished from his kingdom to the forest, he wanted his wife Sita to stay behind, out of concern that the forest life would be too hard for her. But when she insisted that she wanted come with him, he honored her desire. Meanwhile, when Sita was kidnapped by the handsome and powerful Ravana, she remained faithful to Rama. And he literally crossed oceans and destroyed armies to protect her.
In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Kardama Muni and his wife Devahuti are also cited as the ideal husband and wife. Devahuti, a princess, devotedly served her husband Kardama, who was an ascetic, to the point where she forgot about her own needs and became thin and malnourished. Wanting to serve her in return, Kardama gave her the family—nine children—and security that she wanted, creating no less than a flying city for her with palaces, gardens, and maidservants! This kind of reciprocation makes for a healthy, loving marriage.
Steer Clear of Misconceptions with Mature Guidance
Finally, in responding to Sundari Radhika’s article, it is important to discuss her citing of Srila Prabhupada’s sister, Pishima, as an example of why women should serve their husbands no matter what kind of a person they are.
According to the article, Pishima’s husband was “a rogue, meat eater, he drank alcohol, he was a woman-hunter, spending money on gambling, etc.” The article then states that when Pishima asked Prabhupada what to do, “he advised her to do what she learned from her mother—to serve her husband, and to pray to Sri Krishna for the best interest of her husband. And not to argue with her husband.” According to the article, this was successful, and eventually Pishima’s husband changed his ways.
In her own words, the author also says that Prabhupada “didn’t advise her to divorce her husband, or to complain to various women’s ministries about him.”
Using this story out of context, and along with such personal commentary, is dangerous, and seems to insinuate that women should stay in an abusive situation and not get help.
“Both Srila Prabhupada and his sister Pishima were pure devotees,” says Krsnanandini. “If a great soul is able to stay with a fallen husband and triumph, that doesn’t mean we should copy them. We are directed by the scriptures to follow the example of pure devotees in the sense of their service to the Lord—but never to imitate them. As Prabhupada said, Lord Shiva can drink an ocean of poison, but we cannot, and so we should not try to copy him.”
Krsnanandini warns that we cannot artificially see our sister suffering in an abusive relationship and say “It’s okay, they’re doing their dharma.” When we are taught to be concerned about an animal being tortured, how can we sit idly by while one of our fellow devotees is tortured? That is not Krishna consciousness.
“And no one should stay in a dangerous or abusive relationship without seeking the help of other Vaishnavas who are concerned about their welfare,” Krsnanandini adds. “Ministries like Vaishnavas CARE and the ISKCON Women’s Ministry are there for devotees to reach out to. And they exist because unfortunately the issue of women being abused even in our own movement still exists.”
Thus devotees who are looking to have healthy Krishna conscious marriages should steer clear of misconceptions about the philosophy by taking the guidance of mature, qualified persons. The Grihasta Vision Team, for instance, consists entirely of senior devotee couples who have been in successful marriages for a long time and who are also certified marriage and family educators.
The Team offers an in-depth seminar on relationship skills called Strengthening the Bonds that Free Us, as well as one-on-one services such as pre-marital education to couples, both in person and over the phone. Next year, they will release Heart and Soul Connections, an honest, practical and spiritually grounded book on how to have healthy, joyous marriages in Krishna consciousness. They also travel to different communities to train couples in how to become mentor marriage educators in their own community.
“The other day, my husband and I were at the Sunday Feast in ISKCON Chicago, and at least three couples came up to us and thanked us, telling us that a seminar we gave seven years ago helped them so much!” says Krsnanandini. “So both such education, and healthy discussions like the one Sundari Radhika’s article inspired, are very effective in assisting devotees to navigate good, Krishna conscious relationships.”
For more information, or to receive brochures on marriage and parenting, please visit www.vaishnavafamilyresources.org, or email Gvisionteam108@yahoo.com. To contact Krsnanandini Dasi personally, please email krsna@dzfi.org.
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Reader Comments:
Hare Krsna! AGTSP! What is
Hare Krsna! AGTSP!
What is the criteria for labelling a husband as a non-devotee? And the criteria for labelling a wife as a devotee? I was born in ISKCON and practiced spiritual life (according to me) from birth. I fell in love with my husband in med school and he's not an ISKCON devotee. We've been married 3 years, he cooks bhoga and offers it to Krsna first, then offers us. He gets mad at me because I don't chant rounds. He's got other beliefs but he loves our Laddu Gopala. And he encourages our daughter to listen and dance to kirtan. He's somebody in the mode of goodness and he inspires me to make spiritual progress. We're vegetarians, but he eats onion and garlic. He respects my decision not to do so, and we never cook with onion and garlic at home. He does not encourage our daughter to do so either. I follow the regulative principles (my husband as well), I serve my Gopala as best as I can (again my husband as well), but I am not inspired to chant rounds. And we have a very hectic life. We're both students without income trying to raise a child in a hostile country. We both agree that the one who gives us courage to live this life is our Gopala. Does that still make him a non-devotee? And am I really a devotee?
Thank you for clearing this out for me.
Your servant,
Prishni Dasi
Hare Krishna PAMHO we are
Hare Krishna
PAMHO
we are palnning for a new soul i.e for a child in coming days,
kindly guide us how to beget a Krsna Concious Child , found a help to go through the Scripture 'HEART AND SOUL CONNECTION: A VAISNAVA GUIDE TO MARRIAGE, SERVICE AND LOVE,which is still in progress and may take some time
Kindly guide us
Hari Bol
Das
Hare Krsna, As a young
Hare Krsna,
As a young aspiring devotee (raised in Krsna Consciousness my whole life) who is about to be married, I was saddened by the responses I saw to both articles, which I read carefully and thoughtfully. In many ways, it creats trepidation at being married within this movement. I was surprised by how many quotes from scripture, Srila Prabhupad, and other bona fide sources were tossed around in support of personal beliefs. One quote from Srila Prabhupad and then another from Manu saying the opposite thing. I am confident that one could find in some scripture, somewhere, quotes in support of any of one's own personal beliefs. So the question becomes, how do we, as sincere students, know what to follow? At some point, we have to make a decision that is based on our own interpretations of what is most bona fide, whether that may be guru, stri-dharma, or simple prayer. We also have to acknowledge that our understanding is just that--ours--and does not include the the range of experiences and enlightenments of other devotees.
I believe most everyone could agree that Krsna does not desire any devotee to be in any abusive, unhappy situation. Even if I had never read a single scripture, I could see that. Even more so for new devotees, to whom some seem to believe mother Sundari's article was targeted. The claim that she is clearly speaking to a specific audience is clearly refuted by the fact that so many devotees who are not new Krsna Consciousness felt inclined to respond. There is nothing to suggest that "not a devotee" means only karmi; it could and does also mean even those who claim to be devotees but who are not behaving as such. Thus, her article could very well apply to established "devotee" couples. In this case, it was only appropriate that an alternate understanding be offered, especially one that is only promoting healthy relationships amongst devotees, one which emphasizes the necessity of seeking preparation and advice, and one that is supported by authorized sources.
Let's say, for arguments sake, that Mother Sundari's article was meant only for new devotees. Even in this case, there was a need for an alternate understanding from a devotee who has dedicated her life to promoting healthy, Krsna Conscious marriages. As a new devotee with a neophyte understanding, which would I be more inclined to appreciate?
Stay with a husband no matter how badly he treats you, and never talk back. Serve blindly, and accept all abuse without speaking out to anyone or seeking help. Violate every principle you are attempting to follow if he asks, as this is your duty, and eventually you'll be rewarded. "Quote from scripture saying a woman should serve husband as God."
or:
For the unmarried, do everything you can to prepare for a healthy marriage. Be sincere and mature yourself, and also find a sincere mature husband. For the troubled marriages, do everything you can to avoid divorce. Seek help and advice, be patient and be willing to try new things. If separation is necessary because of extreme abuse or disrepsect, this is permitted by scripture. Marriage is built on mutual service and respect; there is no Sita without Rama and no Rama without Sita. "Quote from scripture saying husband and wife are each others' lifelines to Krsna, and that neither can be elevated without service to and appreciation of the other."
If I were a new devotee, I believe I would be much more likely to find the second set of advice more mature, practical, and applicable to me. It seems to me that the greatest problem with Mother Sundari's article, and many of the commentators, was that she failed to emphasize that she was speaking out of her own interpretation of scripture, and that there also exists other, equally (or more) authorized understandings. I really appreciate Mother Krsnanandini's article because it offers practical advice for devotees in all stages of advancement and all stages of relationships. There is little that she says that could not be applied to all women--and men--aspiring to be servants of the Lord. I hope in the future we as devotees are able to engage in more respecful, mature, devotee-like discussion.
Aspiring,
Ganga Devi
Hare Krishna, Good article!
Hare Krishna,
Good article! It struck the proper balance between the concept of continuing to serve the husband or wife, and not easily and whimsically giving up that relationship, and the concept that sanatana dharma, devotional service to Krishna, is our most important duty. The quotes from sastra and Srila Prabhupada were excellent, and right on the point. We ultimately accept those things favorable for Krishna Consciousness (including proper grhastha asrama) and reject those things unfavorable (which may include "a husband who is fallen.")
Superior means responsible.
Superior means responsible. If one cannot take up to his responsibility is not to be considered a superior. We had experience in Iskcon about disciples having to reject guru. So how is it that husbands cannot be rejected? This recurring comparison with Pisima, whenever stri-dharma comes up, even when referring to women who are hardly on the way to become devotee, seems to be used just to make one's opinion stronger. How can a woman who is starting now to approach KC be at the level of Pisima who was born in a vaisnava family and had the support of a more than exalted brother? Reading always all these discussions about stri-dharma it seems that all our KC mission is revolving around this aspect and I have the same feeling when the arranged marriages were on fashion. The example was Srila Prabhupada himself or other couples who he personally matched. So all sort of authorities, (temple presidents, senior devotees, sannyasi, guru etc) were arranging marriages ...results 70% of divorces! This was the real cause forcing people into choices which were not at their level culturally and spiritually. People come to KC to develop an attraction for Krishna, to accept a guru, to transform their life into spiritual. All other religions have stri-dharma as well, so if I have to serve meat, let my husband drink etc because Krishna is satisfied anyway, what is the use of joining Iskcon? I could well become a good christian and make my husband and family happy and pray in church on Sunday chanting Hare Krishna on the rosary. It is clear from the vehemence of some devotees on this theme that is coming up a certain fundamentalism which could easily translate in generations to come in no more initiation to women (husbands will initiate them ) and many more restrictions of this sort. Srila Prabhupada wanted to make "indipendently thoughtful" persons..persons not only men. Hare Krishna
Hare Krishna, You r right
Hare Krishna,
You r right devi ji, Superior means responsible. but how much and what kind of responsibility your means? Should a husband or a wife reject his/her partner if he/she unable to perform his/her responsibility well, even if he/she try hard on his/her level?
.
#{So all sort of authorities, (temple presidents, senior devotees, sannyasi, guru etc) were arranging marriages ...results 70% of divorces!}
.
I don't agree with your comment. Divorce is not because of arrange marriage, it's because of they are unable to practice Prabhupaad's teachings, Shastra teachings properly. They just know and preach prabhupaad's teachings, but can't understand. In Sanatan Dharm marriage is not about to enjoy sex or material life only. It is the devotional bonding between the husband & wife, yes, material life is a piece of this, but this is not everything for happiness. marriage is spiritual sacrifice for the family, for the elders, for the children, for the society(K.C.). Divorce comes when one's physical desire rise more & more & more, when one don't want to be satisfy. Here in India I see many families who are not satisfied materially, they are poorest, some time wife quarrel to his husband, even some time they both don't talk each other till few days. But they don't want divorce. Even if you suggest them for this, they saw you like a fool. Because husband understand his wife & wife understand her husband. They consider divorce like a sin, only a degrade person take divorce. Because a divorcee means a person who can't tolerate, respect his/her partner if he/she is not complete on his/her desire. This is not love, a true love. A true husband or wife can sacrifice for their partner, both are ready to satisfied each other, but no complain, because they understand each other. This is true love, this is devotional marriage. this is what Sanatan Dharm teaches.
Hare Krishna, I am reading
Hare Krishna,
I am reading all the discussion but am really dismayed to see derogatory remarks being made against GVT and Mother Krsnanandini dasi. I think virtues of Vaisnavism are being broken here and instead of being respectful, humble and considerate some devotees are being the opposite. In fact, I can even sense a personal fury being vented unnecessarily in a public forum- very sad to see this.
As regards the definition of a PhD (I myself hold one), I think that listing it as "Perpetual Humility Deficit" is very immature and ill-informed of that commenter which actually goes on to show how deprived or envious he may be feeling. Several senior leaders and sannyasis in our movement hold a PhD and they are using their education in Srila Prabhupada's service and to make such a comment is totally uncalled for. I really wish devotees would be more prudent with regard to their comments.
My obeisances to GVT who is trying its best to clarify everything so nicely and with sastric evidence without twisting anything out of context. Thank you for your services.
Discussions on the topic of
Discussions on the topic of sex appears to be taboo in ISKCON. I am personally pleased Srimati Sundari Radhika's article has sparked debate. Please do not shoot the messenger and lets use the opportunity to formulate guiduing principles for existing and aspiring devotees who find themselves in relationships where a partner's libido may represent a challenge to the other interested in practising bhakti yoga. To hone your skills here are three case studies from real encounters:
CASE 1: What do you advise a young initiated male devotee who complains his wife demands occasional sex. He does unpaid service full time in the temple, his uninitiated wife of 1 year works to maintain the household and supports her husband's choice of lifestyle. They have no children.
CASE 2: What do you advise a middle aged devoted wife whose husband, also an initiated devotee, is philandering with female work colleagues? The couple has two teenage children, the wife does not want a divorce, fears she will be ostracised if her situation is known in the community, she overeats to cope with her pain, the husband is in denial and is well connected to the temple authorities.
CASE 3: Two unrelated community members, one male and one female, visit the temple every sunday. They are both married but have both confided in you they faced difficulties from their respective partners over the sex-strictly-for-kids principle. You see them meet and get closer to one another at the temple every sunday and you realise they are about to embark on an affair. Do you say something to them or do you ignore them?
Dear Madhava, Bhadram te.
Dear Madhava,
Bhadram te. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
A few thoughts. I have read both Sundari Radhika Mataji's article "When the Husband is Not a Devotee" and your article in response to hers "When the Husband is Not a Devotee: Grihastha Vision Team Responds." I have also read the comments after each.
When I first read your article with your adjectives "immature, unrealistic, and imbalanced" along with quotes from Mother Krsnanandini, I was saddened because I know Mother Sundari Radhika. She is a very chaste wife and pure-hearted devotee who lives in Bangalore with her very sincere and qualified Vaisnava husband. She has shared with me that she finds herself frequently approached by Indian women who are new to Krsna consciousness but who have varying home-life situations, including husbands who are not yet devotees. Her Guru Maharaja, who knows the purity of her heart and behavior, has instructed her to preach to these women and counsel them in their marriages. Sundari Mataji encourages such women to engage as best they can in sadhana and devotional service, always remembering Krsna and--without ruffling too many feathers among their family members--to do the best they can to remain Krsna conscious despite their less-than-ideal circumstances.
Atmavidya Prabhu writes in one of the comments he posted after your article, "the authoress is addressing recent karmi women who have taken to KC and are married to men who are still karmis." This is what I understood as I read through Sundari's article.
In the beginning of your interview with Mother Krsnanandini, she advocates that women who are married to non-devotees should be encouraged in their marriages, not discouraged. But after her introduction, she seems to weigh in rather heavily on the side of rejecting fallen husbands. Granted, the quotes which Krsnanandini uses to justify leaving a husband who is fallen are bonafide quotes. Nonetheless, there are women--not only Pishima--who would choose to stay with a husband who is not, as you quote, like Lord Rama. After all, didn't Lord Rama Himself explain to His mother, Kausalya devi, that for a woman to leave her husband is "simply cruel?"
Srila Prabhupada defines "fallen" as "addicted to the four pillars of sinful life." And in CC, Amogha is categorized as fallen because he criticized Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So if a husband of a new devotee lady is neither addicted to the four principles of sinful life nor critical of the Supreme Lord, then what justification does she have to leave such a man?
A woman who is an aspiring devotee but whose husband is not may feel more inspired to stay with her husband and encourage him toward Krsna consciousness, rather than leave him, though such an achievement (the husband becoming KC) may take a long time.
"If any wife wants to be happy with her husband," Prabhupada writes, "she must try to understand her husband's temperament and please him. This is victory for a woman." (SB 9.3.10 Ppt) Notice that Srila Prabhupada uses the word "any." That could include a woman who is married to a non-devotee, and who wants to encourage her husband, difficult as it may be, to eventually take to Krsna consciousness.
"A woman must be trained to be submissive to the will of her husband. Westerners contend that this is a slave mentality for the wife, but factually it is not; it is the tactic by which a woman can conquer the heart of her husband, however irritable or cruel he may be." (Ibid) In the spirit of Sundari's article, "conquering the heart" of one's husband can mean winning him over to Krsna consciousness through devotion, sweet words, refraining from fault-finding, and indomitable patience, faith and prayer for the husband's spiritual awakening. By faithful performance of her own duty, she can become the inspiration that leads her husband to Krsna consciousness.
The mood which came across for me while reading Sundari's article--indefatigable patience, devotion to duty, faith in Krsna's mercy, Krsna's power to gradually purify the heart of one's husband, respect for the husband's need to be in the superior position (S.B. 3.23.2 Purport), sweet words (as well as refraining from harsh words and faultfinding), and constant prayer for the spiritual growth of the husband, as well as always remaining Krsna conscious herself--constitutes the essence of Sundari Radhika's mood in her own marriage as well as in her preaching work.
As I read your article, I sensed a mood of justifying leaving a husband who very well might have turned out to be a good devotee, if given a fair chance by a supportive, respectful, patient, devoted, dutiful, Krsna conscious wife.
Krsnanandini also quotes from the tenth canto:
“My dear dvija-patnis, rest assured that your husbands will not neglect you on your return, nor will your brothers, sons or fathers refuse to accept you. Because you are My pure devotees, not only your relatives but also people in general, as well as the demigods, will be satisfied with you. (Lord Sri Krsna, SB 10.23.31-32)
Lord Krsna is indicating here by the words "on your return" that the dvija-patnis did not leave their husbands as in permanently leaving home.
Mother Krsnanandini also quotes Caitanya-caritamrta:
"If her husband abandons Krsna consciousness and she gives up her connection with him, she follows in the footsteps of the dvija-patnis, the wives of the brähmanas who were engaged in performing sacrifices." (CC 15.264 Purport)
Srila Prabhupada is referring here to a husband who leaves Krsna consciousness, not a husband who has yet to become interested in the association of devotees.
Mata Phalini
I agree with Atmavidya
I agree with Atmavidya Prabhu's comments. The article in question was specifically geared towards a specific audience. The author makes sincere and valid points which took courage to voice in an article and she should have been given a chance to clarify, before her points were taken out of context and ridiculed.
Obviously this is a topic that deserves more discussion.
Hare Krishna! Please accept
Hare Krishna!
Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! All glories to Gurudeva, His Holiness Candramauli Swami! All glories to our siksa Gurus, His Holiness Jayapataka Swami and His Holiness Bhakti Tirtha Swami!
I am so sorry to note the nature of personal attacks on M. Krsnanandini, who is doing so much to serve Srila Prabhupada and is our GVT leader par excellence. If only we learned to argue on the basis of principles then our speech would not be intemperate and hurtful...
I am, of course a very lowly, junior member of GVT but this much I know-ALL the senior members of GVT have been through so much pain themselves that everyone here is deeply committed to ensuring that OTHERS don't suffer...the individual spirit soul's sojourn in this material world is as important as the collective good.
So simply quoting Manu Samhita and then FORGETTING that every individual is UNIQUE needs all the help he/she can get in this journey, and showing them the rule book, or else it's, "OFF WITH HIS/HER HEAD!" IS CRUEL, HEARTLESS, AND TERRIBLY UNJUST.
We must never forget how PERSONAL, MERCIFUL AND LOVING Srila Prabhupada was with everyone who came to His Divine Grace and even in ordinary dealings we see that "JUSTICE MUST BE TEMPERED WITH MERCY."
As for M.Krsnanandini's counseling, a wise, more compassionate counselor I have not seen, so please ask the scores AND SCORES of people whose marriages, relationships, lives have been saved, just how much they benefited...the proof of the pudding is in the eating...Prabhupada often quoted that.
The GVT is lauded as one of the most significant grass-roots organization, and M. Krsnanandini has been lauded as showing "exemplary leadership skills" by the SSPT in steering us here at GVT. She has also received the Jahnava Mata Award at Mayapur.
Of course, great souls will NEVER defend themselves, and accept everything as Krishna's mercy, but their disciples [hopefully I am one of hers] will not stand for their mentors and guides being blasphemed and hence I am writing this.
GVT is making a huge difference to people and many, many, Gurus and GBCs have endorsed our work. Now all of them are NOT hare-brained by any stretch of imagination to do that.
Just yesterday, His Holiness Bhakti Marg Swami was here and spoke to us for over 2 hours about how much HH looks forward to our book, HEART AND SOUL CONNECTIONS-A VAISNAVA GUIDE TO MARRIAGE, SERVICE AND LOVE,' and how excited HH is about it. HH said, "This book should have come out 30 years ago," and lauded our efforts. HH added that he was "so happy to have someone to refer to," when people come to HH with their individual challenges in this material life...and aren't there many!
Similar comments have been made by many GBCs, Gurus [too numerous to list] and surely we cannot dub them ALL as "harebrained!"
So let's not get carried away and blindly obey the laws, but the spirit of the law, tempered with care and compassion for every spirit soul.
By the way what earthly reason does M. Krsnanandini have to check with the authoress about anything? Her response is STRICTLY based on the published piece, and where on earth/scriptures/Manu Samhita does it say that she cannot respond in kind-by publishing her response?
Thanks for your patience.
Your servant,
Sridevi dasi
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“However, disagreeing with Sundari Radhika’s perspective that a wife should serve her husband no matter what, the Vedas say that all acts must be performed according to ‘desa, kala, patra’—time, place and circumstance. ISKCON Founder Srila Prabhupada cited this many times in conversations and in his purports such as that to Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.14.34.”
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You mention “desa, kala, patra” but then totally ignore the audience and circumstance that the authoress is addressing. She is addressing recent karmi women who have taken to KC and are married to men who are still karmis.
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Maybe before writing your response you might have gotten in contact with the authoress to get clarifications from her.
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You wrote:
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“In the purport to Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.11.28, Srila Prabhupada gives a direct answer to Sundari Radhika’s claim that “If the husband wants her to serve him meat, alcohol, sex, etc, she should serve him.” Prabhupada writes, ‘A chaste woman is advised not to agree to serve such a husband. It is not that a chaste woman should be like a slave while her husband is naradhama, the lowest of men.’”
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Certainly leaving such a husband and returning to the home of one’s family is an option but the authoress is addressing women who have just come to KC as can be seen from the initial opening sentences. But should this be the option one week after discovering KC?
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Another point is many devotee women make flimsy excuses as to what constitutes fallen and then divorce their husband and remarry. They read the part about leaving but not the part about not remarrying. And thus we find in ISKCON women who have been married 3 or more times.
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“It does not endorse a one-sided, unhealthy relationship as Sundari Radhika seems to do in her article, with comments such as this one: “The wife should not be rude, critical or fight with the husband, as this would be greater than any sin he may possess. His faults should be dealt with by his superiors or equals, not by his subordinate (his wife).”
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Actually Manu says as follows:
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“Though destitute of virtue, or seeking pleasure (elsewhere), or devoid of good qualities, (yet) a husband must be constantly worshipped as a god by a faithful wife.” Manu 5.154.
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And:
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“She who shows disrespect to (a husband) who is addicted to (some evil) passion, is a drunkard, or diseased, shall be deserted for three months (and be) deprived of her ornaments and furniture.” Manu: 9.78.
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In these texts Manu clearly indicates that even though the man may have bad qualities, it is not the wife’s duty to criticize him, in fact such disrespect is worthy of punishment. Manu is not absolving the man of his sins for which he will get his own punishment. But it is not the wife’s duty to do such faultfinding.
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When juniors find fault with their superiors even if they are faulty then the junior must suffer as seen in the following text from Bhagavatam.
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“The Supreme Lord said: During the age of the first Manu, the sage Marici had six sons by his wife Urna. They were all exalted demigods, but once they laughed at Lord Brahma when they saw him preparing to have sex with his own daughter. Because of that improper act, they immediately entered a demoniac form of life, and thus they took birth as sons of Hiranyakasipu. The goddess Yogamaya then took them away from Hiranyakasipu, and they were born again from Devaki's womb. After this, O King, Kamsa murdered them. Devaki still laments for them, thinking of them as her sons. These same sons of Marici are now living here with you.” SB 10.85.47-49
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Because the sons of Marici criticized their superior for an actual fault he had they were cursed. It is actually the duty of others to make such criticism not the junior.
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This is not difficult in a culture with joint families where the husband has his relatives who will correct him. But in the West this will be harder to do.
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So if a wife has such a bad husband she should leave him and never marry again and not be like several women who have been married X number of times.
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But as pointed out at the beginning of the text and several times the authoress is dealing with normal karmi men not abusers.
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You say:
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“Men Want their Wife to be Sita, But they Don’t Want to be Rama.”
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First of all the article was in an eZine dedicated to Women’s issues NOT TO MEN. So why should it have anything to do with how men should behave? That would be the topic for articles about men.
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Second of all the point of the article was that a woman can still make spiritual advancement even if her husband is not a devotee what to speak of Lord Rama. It is not that “if you want me to be Sita then you be Rama.” No it is not dependent on the husband, it is dependent on the woman.
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Who could be a more perfect husband than Lord Siva, yet his wife Sati, disobeyed him leading to her own death and the death of thousands of brahmanas.
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Regarding a chaste wife serving a fallen husband you forgot this:
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"The wife of a brahmana suffering from leprosy manifested herself as the topmost of all chaste women by serving a prostitute to satisfy her husband. She thus stopped the movement of the sun, brought her dead husband back to life and satisfied the three principal demigods [Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara].
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PURPORT
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The Aditya Purana, Markandeya Purana and Padma Purana tell about a brahmana who was suffering from leprosy but had a very chaste and faithful wife. He desired to enjoy the company of a prostitute, and therefore his wife went to her and became her maidservant, just to draw her attention for his service. When the prostitute agreed to associate with him, the wife brought her the leprotic husband. When that leper, the sinful son of a brahmana, saw the chastity of his wife, he finally abandoned his sinful intentions. While coming home, however, he touched the body of Markandeya Rsi, who thus cursed him to die at sunrise. Because of her chastity, the woman was very powerful. Therefore when she heard about the curse, she vowed to stop the sunrise. Because of her strong determination to serve her husband, the three deities-namely Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara-were very happy, and they gave her the benediction that her husband would be cured and brought back to life.”
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CC Antya 20.57
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Not every woman has the option of leaving her husband because of his perceived bad qualities. So what is she to do about her spiritual life?
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She can still make advancement by serving her husband to please Krsna. And that was the point of the authoress.
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She repeatedly stated that she was talking about women with normal karmi husbands and not freaks but nobody remembered that and jumped to extremes.
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She also mentioned at the beginning that she is talking about karmi couples where the wife is the first one to get interested in KC. This is ignored.
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Then you say:
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“Steer Clear of Misconceptions with Mature Guidance”
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Perhaps you would have had your misconceptions cleared by being mature and not take things out of context or if you were not sure then contacting the authoress for her clarification on points before you started making derisive comments.
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If this is how Krsnanandini handle cases without even contacting the authoress we can imagine the value of their counseling advice. Just because she has a PhD (Perpetual Humility Deficit) it is of zero value today when you can find someone with a PhD to support even the most hare brained idea.
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After reading Krsnanandini response we can understand that the Grhasta Vision team is blind because they didn’t bother to check out the “kala desha patra” from the author of the story. But instead pontificated in ignorance.
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All in all this article, especially the second half, is an immature knee jerk reaction to some imaginary danger because the authors took Sundari Radhika’s article completely out of context, and then didn’t even bother to get her input by way of clarification.
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For all those persons who got bent out of shape by this article they should re-read the first portion again:
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"We were asked a question: what if the wife is a devotee of Lord Krishna and her husband is a non- devotee (karmi)? If one partner is a devotee and the other one is not (yet), it is not a problem if the devotee wife knows what her duty is towards Krishna in this situation."
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The authoress is addressing a real life situation where a woman may discover KC and her husband is a karmi, not a fallen devotee or a former devotee but a karmi. It is not for established devotee couples.
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I recall a god-sister of mine who was born in an Indian family but whose husband was not a devotee and was not following the 4 regs. She asked Srila Prabhupada what she should do in that situation. He said "just do what your mother trained you to do--serve your husband."
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But after Srila Prabhupada left her god-sisters said "oh your husband is not a devotee, he is a demon, you should divorce him." They put so much peer pressure on her that finally she disobeyed Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions divorced her karmi husband and married a devotee.
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Srila Prabhupada elsewhere -
Srila Prabhupada elsewhere - and in His commentaries - strictly advised that a woman serving a karmi husband must divorce. His instructions were given according to the circumstances.
Whatever happened
Whatever happened to:
---
sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah
Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.
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That is what Krishna and Vaishnavism teaches. The idea that various other dharmas are of any relevance to a Gaudiya Vaishnava is not and never has been a part of Sri Chaitanya's teachings. When did "Stri Dharma" become a topic of interest in Gaudiya Vaishnavism? I don't know, but it seems to be of recent origin, I seem to remember the mood of the past Gaudiya acharyas being that the only dharma Vaishnavas are required to follow is bhakti. How about the Gaudiya Vaishava community getting back to it's roots?